Julian Brigden - A Massively, Massively, Massively Overvalued Market
In this episode, we delve into a comprehensive discussion with Julian Brigden, a
renowned global macro strategist. Brigden shares his insights on the current
state of the US equity market, the economic implications of the Goldilocks
narrative, the potential risks of the bond market, and the future of global
economies like the UK, Europe, and Japan. This episode offers a deep-dive into
the complexities of global economics and financial markets.
Topics Discussed
• Brigden's perspective on the US equity market being massively overvalued
compared to the rest of the world
• Discussion on the dominant narrative of the Goldilocks soft landing and its
statistical rarity
• Insights into the potential risks and consequences of the Fed's rate cuts
• Analysis of the resilience of countries like Australia, Canada, and the UK in
the face of high rates
• Brigden's views on the structural bear market in fixed income and its
implications
• Discussion on the potential for growth and inflation to run hotter than
consensus
• Insights into the political and economic state of Japan and the potential for
autonomous growth
• Discussion on the potential trades and market trends to watch out for
This episode provides an in-depth analysis of the current state of global economies and financial markets. Brigden's insights offer valuable perspectives for anyone interested in understanding the intricacies of global macroeconomics and financial strategies. The audience will gain a deeper understanding of the complexities of global markets and potential future trends.
This is "ReSolve Riffs" – published on YouTube every Friday afternoon to debate the most relevant investment topics of the day, hosted by Adam Butler, Mike Philbrick and Rodrigo Gordillo of ReSolve Global* and Richard Laterman of ReSolve Asset Management.
*ReSolve Global refers to ReSolve Asset Management SEZC (Cayman) which is registered with the Commodity Futures Trading Commission as a commodity trading advisor and commodity pool operator. This registration is administered through the National Futures Association (“NFA”). Further, ReSolve Global is a registered person with the Cayman Islands Monetary Authority.
Transcript
And the reality of the situation is this is just
2
:a hyper bubble, but there are some
obviously good companies still left.
3
:You're paying an awful lot for them.
4
:And the reality of the situation
is when I look at the U S equity
5
:market, I think this is a massively,
massively, massively overvalued market
6
:versus the rest of the world, right?
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:Like four standard deviations
overvalued versus the rest of the world.
8
:But those dynamics are unlikely to
change until either the dollar declines
9
:And that hurts foreign investors
who've got their money in the U.
10
:S.
11
:And or the bubble bursts because it
just runs out of puff, let's say.
12
:Doesn't look like that's the case.
13
:Or we go into recession and that
doesn't look like the case either.
14
:And so for me, you've got this sort
of ongoing, self reinforcing, truly
15
:reflective type cycle going on in the
US equity market where the purchase
16
:of the asset, In this case, stocks
underpins wealth, underpins employment,
17
:underpins Fed rate hike, underpins the
dollar, underpins the valuation of U.
18
:S.
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:stocks for foreigners.
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:You know, it's a very self reinforcing,
literally reflective in the true
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:Soros esque sense of the world.
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:Adam Butler: Julian Brigden,
welcome to Resolve RIFS.
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:How you doing today, man?
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:Julian Brigden: Doing well.
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:Doing well.
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:I'm in I'm in Colorado again.
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:So, we actually had some snow.
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:So I'm, you know, happy camper.
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:Adam Butler: Excellent.
30
:Let's just you and me today with the
other DGENs who sometimes join us are
31
:often various productive activities.
32
:So, we get to have all the fun.
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:Julian Brigden: There you go.
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:Perfect.
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:Adam Butler: yeah.
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:So what what has been on your mind?
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:What are you focused on at the moment?
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:Um,
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:Julian Brigden: So, know, the thing that's
really been occupying our thoughts is this
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:sort of dominant, let's put it like that,
narrative of this Goldilocks soft landing.
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:And I think the thing that I struggle
with is that, first off, statistically,
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:that's a very odd unusual event.
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:It's not the norm.
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:The norm is we've had 12
tightening cycles since the 60s.
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:We've had eight recessions.
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:We've had four arguable soft landings.
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:The problem that I have, and
obviously the one that everyone
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:quotes is this 95 sort of one.
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:Onwards.
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:Now, it's fair, I think, to
assume that the Fed is pursuing
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:the same sort of policy framework
that it did in the late:
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:But and we refer to it,
this is opportunistic
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:disinflationary policy framework.
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:And I think, this is one of the
ones that we discussed with you
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:guys when we were last on the show.
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:And this idea of you, that when you have
inflation of this sort of magnitude, there
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:are truly two approaches you can take.
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:The first one is you do what Volcker did.
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:And you create deliberate disinflation.
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:So you kind of kill the economy.
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:And the second one is you choke the
economy, but not to the point of death.
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:Just enough that over time
you can grind inflation lower.
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:Now the issue with that
is it did work in:
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:That's true.
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:And that's certainly what, They
are trying to pursue, but there's
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:a couple of problems with what's
priced into markets based upon that.
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:The first one is if you never
killed the economy, if you didn't
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:strangle, if you didn't deliberately
annihilate it and Waller actually
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:referred to this in his recent
speech, if you don't break anything.
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:There's no need for you to immediately
start to hack rates, right?
71
:Which is what we're
pricing in markets, right?
72
:You can fine tune them so that real
rates don't get too constrictive,
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:but you don't need to slash them.
74
:And that's why, interestingly, the set
forecast, so the Fed's central forecasts
75
:are Pricing in 75 basis points of cuts.
76
:And that's exactly what Greenspan
did between the beginning of:
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:the end of and the beginning of 1996.
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:And these were kind of then fine tuning.
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:And then, what's remarkable is
then he left rates unchanged
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:for the best part of 30 months.
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:I mean really, 30 months.
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:Nowhere.
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:Now, he also got extraordinarily lucky,
and I'm not saying this couldn't happen.
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:And he got the building
productivity that we saw as we ran
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:up into the dot com revolution.
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:And maybe, over time,
we can get that from AI.
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:But the question is, is it this year?
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:Right?
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:Is it next year, is it year after?
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:Because if it isn't this coming year,
then this idea that the Fed is going
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:to be able to, slash rates aggressively
because inflation is falling and give
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:you kind of the Goldilocks and the
Goldilocks is accelerated or high, let's
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:say high levels of real growth, lower
inflation and high levels of employment.
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:And And the other problem that we have
is that In every other one of those
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:quote unquote soft landings, or at
least let's say in three of those quote
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:unquote four soft landings, right, out
of the 12 tightening cycles every single
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:one started with higher unemployment.
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:And this is the problem that we see.
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:If you try and accelerate growth from
here, right, if you go from, you know,
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:earnings growth being down 3 percent to up
11 or 12 next year, which has to be driven
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:by higher real growth in the economy.
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:The problem is, is where are you going to
find the bloody workers to do that with 3.
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:7 percent unemployment, unless you're
willing to take the risk of higher
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:wage growth, which typically feeds
straight into core service inflation.
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:Now, there is one exception.
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:One of those four soft landings,
which I think is where we're
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:running and looks most likely.
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:And it looked like a soft landing.
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:I don't classify it as a soft landing.
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:It looked like a soft landing
because for at least nine months,
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:things went according to plan.
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:And that was the only other time in
history where we tried to accelerate
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:growth or in post war history,
we tried to accelerate growth
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:from this level of unemployment.
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:And that was the late 1960s.
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:And what happened is, Inflation came down.
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:The Fed had a little, they'd been
tightening quite aggressively in
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:66 because inflation had broken
out of a well established range.
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:They then had a little mini credit
crisis which was somewhat idiosyncratic
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:in nature related to RedQ, but it
caused a big slowdown in housing
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:and then they prematurely eased
and they eased into ongoing fiscal
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:spending and unemployment never rose.
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:It kind of flatlined for nine months
and then it started to go back
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:down again as growth picked up.
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:And what you ran into straight
away was average early earnings
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:took off, core inflation went,
and the bond market went again.
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:And When I look at the world,
that I think is the real danger.
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:I think the growth is just too robust.
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:And I look at where rates are and
they don't appear to be sufficiently
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:tied to restrain GDP growth and
to bring about that broad slowdown
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:that the Fed is talking about.
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:Because while the market is just
singularly focused on headline inflation
133
:or core inflation or inflation in general,
the Fed keeps talking about Wanting to
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:see growth slow down, wanting to see
the labour market slow down, right?
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:And these are much broader issues.
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:So even if you get goldilocks, the
question is goldilocks in what?
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:Do you just get goldilocks in inflation
for nine months and then it re
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:accelerates as real growth accepts, right?
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:It picks up.
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:Or do you need to see slower growth?
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:Because as I look at things, and I know
that we've been, more and more people
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:are jumping on this bandwagon, but we
were pushing it at the end of last year,
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:it looks to us that cyclical growth
is actually re accelerating and I sit
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:here and I go, I'm struggling with the
justification for the Fed to do 75, right?
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:Let alone the double that, that
the market's got priced it.
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:So I think that's what's
really grabbing my attention.
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:And how does that pan out in market?
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:Adam Butler: Yeah, so really the
templates are the McChesney Martin
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:1966 pivot into the 1970s stagflation.
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:the Greenspan pivot in.
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:In 95, remind me, I don't like, so
the nine, the 89 to 94 scenario was
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:major run up and over leveraging of
the commercial real estate market.
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:They set up a bad bank.
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:They put
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:hundreds of banks in receivership, right?
156
:Walk me through what happened
there from sort of 89.
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:To 94 and let's see if we can tease out
the dimensions of that that are similar
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:today and what might be different.
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:Like I remember there was a
bond massacre in 94, right?
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:Julian Brigden: Correct.
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:Correct.
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:And that was, you know, that was
another classic example where the bond
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:market got ahead of itself and on these
assumptions and then got proved utterly
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:wrong by a Fed that flipped on them.
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:And, you know, this is the sort of risk
I think that we run because we'd had a,
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:we'd had a big slowdown in 1990, right?
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:We had a recession in 1990
and growth kind of picked up.
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:And then CPI had been.
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:Reasonably well behaved and
was actually, but was still by
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:Fed standards a little high.
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:And this is the point, right?
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:I mean, they were dealing with
inflation that was stuck, basically.
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:It had come off the highs of around
6%, but it kind of got stuck.
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:In 94 into 95 at around this sort
of 3%, and so Greenspan came along
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:and he decided that what he was
going to try and do was grind this
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:out and he did have the foresight
to believe that productivity could
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:allow this to happen and, productivity
is the get out of jail free card.
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:Adam Butler: Economic
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:Julian Brigden: so productivity
starts to pick up very rapidly as
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:we're moving into the dot com period.
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:And what that enables you to do is
kind of get the best of all worlds.
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:You get falling inflation, right?
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:inflation, falls, from those three
levels that down to below two in 99.
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:And it's great for the bond market.
185
:It also enables you to have great
nominal GDP growth, kind of around
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:the levels that we are now, around
six, which is fantastic for corporate
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:earnings because that's what they do.
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:And unemployment as well, also continued
to fall because we come from this,
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:relatively high level in the early 90s
when we were, you know, we got to 7.
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:6 percent.
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:So that was the big, and unemployment
starting when he moved into this
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:opportunistic disinflation, he started
at five and three quarters and you got
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:all the way down to the current level 3.
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:7.
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:So that's, you were coming out of
this recessionary kind of backdrop
196
:and inflation just proved a little too
stubborn and so the Fed kind of sat there
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:and allowed them, you know, played this
game where they ground the thing out.
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:And I said, the big difference is In
three of those four soft landings that
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:you look at since the 1960s is that we
always started with higher unemployment.
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:Adam Butler: Well, was there a material
fiscal impulse then coming out of that?
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:So they absorbed all these banks,
they went into receivership.
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:What caused that impulse coming
out of the:
203
:sort of real estate based recession
that drove inflation higher?
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:Was there anything structural about it?
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:Julian Brigden: no, it was, it was sticky.
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:Inflation wasn't significantly higher.
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:I mean, if you look at where, CPI did
come down, I'm just looking at it now
208
:and still get the right numbers, right?
209
:So if you look, inflation
had hit in:
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:2%, just over six,
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:Adam Butler: and then
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:Julian Brigden: and then it dropped.
213
:Adam Butler: did Greenspan insist on
raising rates in big surprise raise in 94?
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:Julian Brigden: mean, in a way,
it was proving sticky, right?
215
:Because it was stuck between 92
and 90, and the 96, at kind of 3%.
216
:And so he came up with this idea
that what you need to do is you
217
:just nudge rates up a little bit,
to just kind of grind it out.
218
:And that's what they did.
219
:They cut them in, in, as we move
into recession in the early 90s,
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:they cut rates from eight and a
quarter, basically down to three.
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:Adam Butler: Yeah.
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:Julian Brigden: And then in late 94,
when the inflation proves resilient.
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:In late 93 and into early 94,
they then raise them back up again
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:Adam Butler: Right.
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:Julian Brigden: to, basically six.
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:So they double them
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:Adam Butler: Right.
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:And we'll
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:Julian Brigden: and it's
just to grind it out,
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:Adam Butler: okay.
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:So the economy was humming at that point.
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:It was back on its own two feet
because they've absorbed all those
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:bad debts that written it down.
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:so the government
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:Julian Brigden: the balance sheet
up, essentially allowed everything
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:to sort of function properly again.
237
:And I think you could,
you know, you can see it.
238
:I find it quite intriguing this
morning to see the story that we
239
:got on Bloomberg about, I don't
know if you saw it about the banks.
240
:Starting to duke it out with private
credit to fund all this leveraged
241
:buyout debt that's coming due.
242
:So the banks had all been squeezed out of
this space last year and the year before.
243
:And private equity basically
funded all these deals.
244
:And now the banks are trying
to get back into that space.
245
:Now that, rates are lower
and so on and so forth.
246
:And to me, this is indicative of.
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:This easing of financial
conditions that we've seen, the
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:question is, is that justified?
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:And I question that, I, unless I, you
know, I'm very much of the opinion that
250
:the labor market in broad aggregate terms,
so how much people earn, how many people
251
:are working, that sort of thing, in, in
totality, if you look at the labor market,
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:basically dictates, nominal GDP because
it's, consumption 60 percent of GDP.
253
:And if you look at it, It suggests
nominal GDP is still around six.
254
:And so, this is where I have this
problem of, you know, how do we
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:sustain 6 percent nominal GDP with 3.
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:7 percent unemployment?
257
:And the risks are, as I think, see
things at the moment, if you go
258
:back to that Goldilocks analogy,
the porridge is too hot still.
259
:It isn't just right.
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:And the risk is, for whatever reason,
the Fed seems to be happy with that,
261
:which I think is a long term threat
to the long end of the bull market.
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:But let's assume that They get it wrong.
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:The data that they think is softening,
which they do, doesn't soften, as my model
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:suggests is not going to be the case.
265
:And then they turn around to us
in March and they go, no rate cut.
266
:And then they turn around to
us in June and go, no rate cut.
267
:And they turn around to us in
September and go, no rate cut.
268
:Then the risk is then that at some point
by holding rates here, you'll actually
269
:will do more damage because as the refires
come up and we know the commercial real
270
:estate problems, et cetera, et cetera.
271
:And then the risk is that you'll
actually tip over the employment market
272
:and the thing will become too cold.
273
:Cause it's the bottom line, I
think, I mean, bottom line I've
274
:been pushing to my clients is look,
Goldilocks is not the base case.
275
:Statistically, it's at best.
276
:one in three and given the three of those
four occasions when we did end up with it
277
:started with much higher unemployment and
the one where the unemployment started at
278
:the current levels and it wasn't really a
sustainable Goldilocks scenario as I said
279
:it lasted for nine months and then went
horribly wrong again as inflation soared.
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:I think the true odds of Goldilocks
are far lower than one in three.
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:Adam Butler: Yeah, Julian.
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:What's not really talked about so much
is the fact that we've got unemployment.
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:That's so low.
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:We've got inflation that seems
to be have almost troughed and.
285
:You know, it looks like maybe moving
higher again, and we've got a, we've
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:got fiscal deficits in the 6, 7, 8
percent range, as far as the eye can see.
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:Julian Brigden: Correct, correct, correct.
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:Adam Butler: I don't understand
is why everyone thinks that the
289
:economy is going to be so weak
as to prompt any cuts at all.
290
:To me, the risk is on the
right tail, not the left.
291
:Julian Brigden: Now, I mean,
that's, look, that, that's my view.
292
:I think from an economic perspective,
I don't see how the Fed can justify
293
:really any cuts even what I would
call the sort of fine tuning cuts
294
:that they are foreseeing, right?
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:Remember, they have
unemployment rising to 4.
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:1 percent in the SEPs.
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:And they have growth falling to 1.
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:4 percent this year.
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:And that's the reason to
justify, and inflation falling.
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:And that's the reason to
justify 75 basis points.
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:But as I think, see things setting up.
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:None of those are happening, right?
303
:I see unemployment that the
labor metrics, which are anything
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:you're at risk of reaccelerating.
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:And a lot has that has to
do with this effect that we
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:call hyper financialization.
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:So this relationship between basically
equity markets and the real economy,
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:whereby the equity market in this bizarre.
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:Tucked up US world that we live in
actually leads because the only thing
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:that CEOs care about is their stock price.
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:So the ditty that we have is
one is very simple, you know,
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:equities rise, they fire equities.
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:So equities fall, they fire.
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:Equities rise, they hire.
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:And equities have been rising again.
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:So You know, all that weakness that you
saw in:
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:market metrics, so things like the
challenger layoff numbers, the claims
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:numbers that were all going, looking
like recession, recession, recession.
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:Last year, as stocks recovered
those things, all that
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:weakness is just reversed.
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:Adam Butler: In this economy, companies
do not lay off staff when the stock price
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:is, at these kind of multiples, right?
323
:They lay off when the market is
telling them that the economy is weak.
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:They're taking their cues from the market.
325
:If the market's telling them the
economy is strong and earnings
326
:are going to be strong, they're
not going to lay off workers.
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:If they're not laying off workers, how
are we slowing demand again with fiscal
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:deficits in the six, seven percent
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:Julian Brigden: Correct.
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:Correct.
331
:I, it's I love listening to the
calls from the PMI guys, right?
332
:And there's a couple of the,
there's a couple of places
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:you can follow them online.
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:And Tim Fiore, who's the current
chairman of the ISM manufacturing survey,
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:they did their sort of semi annual
outlook and it was, reasonably upbeat.
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:But what was interesting, it
was done before the pivot.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:And Tim is very good
at calling the economy.
340
:I really do put a lot of
weight on what the guy said.
341
:In fairness to him, you know, back in last
summer, when everyone was really bearish,
342
:he was going, I don't think it's gonna, I
think this thing is okay, actually, right?
343
:Looks actually okay.
344
:He just came out and he went right
I mean this wasn't a bad survey even
345
:before they pivoted now They've just
given us the green light to just go
346
:for it And I think we're gonna have
ISM back at you know:
347
:what's actually interesting about that?
348
:You've got to go back 30 years to
find an occasion where the Fed cut
349
:when ISM came back up above 50.
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:Adam Butler: Yeah.
351
:Julian Brigden: they stop
cutting or they hike.
352
:Adam Butler: Right.
353
:Julian Brigden: So it's going to get,
I think, really, really interesting.
354
:And the question is having
arguably screwed it up again.
355
:In terms of their economic
forecasting, do they have the, are
356
:they willing to pursue the cuts anyway?
357
:Because I think there are, there is
some rationale to say that there's
358
:something else going on here.
359
:There is another driving
force behind some of the cuts.
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:I don't know the answer if
they do it, but if they do.
361
:Then there's, look, they can
do what the hell they like.
362
:But as I always say, this,
I don't judge people.
363
:I just like to figure out what the
consequences are of their action.
364
:So, I could see them still in an
environment where growth is still
365
:relatively robust, still trying to
justify, you know, 50, but if they
366
:do, and my models are right and the
equity market holds up, which is
367
:another thing we need to discuss.
368
:Then I think it doesn't bode
well for the long end of the bond
369
:market in an environment where I
fundamentally believe we're in a
370
:structural bear market in fixed income.
371
:And if it hadn't been for
COVID, that started in:
372
:Adam Butler: Yeah, so if
the trajectory of rates.
373
:Ends up being less dovish so
let's first of all, let's explore.
374
:We've explored some of the reasons
why that might be the case already.
375
:I think there's a very strong case for
why growth and inflation are both going
376
:to be run considerably hotter than.
377
:Consensus
378
:Julian Brigden: And you look fiscal
is a huge part of this, right?
379
:It's just huge.
380
:You go, you want to go back to
that late 60s analogy when we
381
:were fighting the Vietnam War,
which was a big driver of that.
382
:We're arguably fighting
three wars now, right?
383
:If not four,
384
:Adam Butler: yeah,
385
:Julian Brigden: right?
386
:We've got two kinetic wars, Russia
and Ukraine and the Middle East.
387
:We've got a climate change war,
and we're in a cold war with China.
388
:It's hugely bloody expensive, all
of those things, hugely expensive.
389
:So I struggle to see how fiscal
390
:Adam Butler: well, the other,
391
:Julian Brigden: continue to
expand, let alone gets addressed,
392
:Adam Butler: well, that, that
actually might be a bit of a clue.
393
:Right?
394
:I mean, it could be that the Fed
is sort of seeing the writing on
395
:the wall that deficits are going
to continue at this pace, even in
396
:the event of a Trump presidency,
that he may ratchet back on direct
397
:investment, but preserve the tax cuts.
398
:Whether you got supply side or
demand side, the fiscal situation
399
:is unlikely to change dramatically.
400
:The other thing that I think it's
been a really interesting surprise
401
:this cycle is how the interest
sensitives haven't responded at all.
402
:We've gone from basically zero
rates to 5 percent and homebuilders
403
:are, are on fire, right?
404
:Like, um, auto manufacturing on fire,
like which area of the economy is
405
:going to respond to higher rates.
406
:That would prompt the kind of
cuts that the Fed is suggesting.
407
:Julian Brigden: Well, I think in
fairness to the Fed, they're not, right?
408
:I'll read you a quote from Chris
Waller, which I thought was quite
409
:interesting, from last week.
410
:so he said, in many previous cycles,
there which began after shocks
411
:to the economy, either threatened
or caused causing a recession.
412
:The FOMC cut rates reactively and did
so quickly and often by large amounts.
413
:This cycle, however, with economic
activity and labor markets in good shape
414
:and inflation coming down gradually to 2
percent I see no reason to move quickly
415
:as quickly or cut as rapidly in the past.
416
:So I think this goes back to a
large extent what they are trying
417
:to do this opportunistic policy.
418
:Disinflationary policy framework, which
is what Greenspan did, but they've done
419
:an absolute appalling job at explaining
this to the markets for whatever reason.
420
:So we, they keep saying things, well, you
know, the market can do what the market
421
:wants and we'll see which one's right.
422
:We're right or they're right, and.
423
:I just think it's so self defeating
and so I don't understand why they
424
:don't have, and we discussed this on
a policy call this morning internally,
425
:where they don't have the balls
basically to come out and say the
426
:sort of things that you see from other
central bankers, where the other central
427
:bankers just go, no, it's too early.
428
:One thing I think has been quite
interesting is something that's
429
:got me thinking a lot is, comments
from the bank of England who have
430
:highlighted the fact that sure, goods
inflation is zero or negative, right?
431
:But goods inflation is
always zero or negative.
432
:And what's more important
is service inflation.
433
:And the bank of England said, you can
just forget it because service inflation
434
:is still Miles above where it should be.
435
:And, you know, when we look at it, I
know everyone gets their knickers in
436
:a twist about, Oh, owner's equivalent
REN and it's going to come down.
437
:Sure.
438
:It's probably going to come down.
439
:But as a fact, when you look at
the dynamics versus the overall
440
:service thing, it could still come
down and overall service inflation
441
:could remain relatively high.
442
:I'm not saying it's, it's
not going to come down a bit.
443
:Could it, but it could
remain uncomfortably high.
444
:Adam Butler: yeah.
445
:And we haven't even really seen
any kind of self reinforcing
446
:labor cost spiral, right?
447
:I mean, it's been miraculous how labor has
been completely neutered in this cycle.
448
:They haven't had any
negotiating power at all.
449
:They're, you know, a
450
:Julian Brigden: mean, you still, but
you have got Atlanta wages, which I
451
:like, still running above five and
that's still pretty bloody brisk, right?
452
:Adam Butler: Sure.
453
:I mean, but they're still far behind.
454
:Julian Brigden: yeah, no, no, no,
no, but I think they, yes, exactly.
455
:They're still far behind, but I
think they're going to, I see no
456
:reason why they don't catch up.
457
:Adam Butler: Which would be
another inflation impulse, right?
458
:Julian Brigden: I just can't see
politically how wages don't, over time,
459
:and this is the big political problem
that Biden faces he's, the economy's
460
:in great shape he's just getting the
blame for that 20 percent haircut.
461
:you took in the real disposable income
essentially as the US corporate sector
462
:ripped your bloody heart out in terms
of price increases because we live
463
:in this highly uncompetitive economy.
464
:And so what has to happen now
is over time, wages need to
465
:play catch up to rebuild that.
466
:20 percent or you're going to a shit load
of political turmoil in this country,
467
:which I think you're going to have anyway.
468
:I don't see wage.
469
:I don't, none of our models are suggesting
wage pressure really drops all that much.
470
:It still looks to me like it's stuck
at five and change well into:
471
:which that's why I struggle to find.
472
:Any rationale for the Fed to really
cut at all, and certainly to go beyond,
473
:a couple of 25s, which have either
justified because, they've cocked it
474
:up and they don't want to ride it back
and say, oh no, we were wrong again.
475
:Or, and I do believe this is the
case, and I hear this from policy
476
:friends, out of fear of Trump, right?
477
:There is a large institutional fear
in the Fed, and you can see it.
478
:In all the global elite, I mean,
just look at what Christine
479
:Lagarde said about Trump.
480
:I mean, she broke every single protocol
to come out and criticize Trump.
481
:A central bank governor should not under
any circumstances, certainly a foreign
482
:one, say anything about a US president.
483
:And yet she did.
484
:And I think that to me is
just indicative of the angst.
485
:In those policy circles
and all that global elite.
486
:Adam Butler: So how do you think of Trump?
487
:Julian Brigden: go 25 50 on the back
of that to ensure there is no slowdown
488
:and that we'd run this economy Hot into
the election because Janet Yellen sure
489
:as hell her behavior is she's doing
everything to frustrate the Fed's Attempt
490
:to slow this economy down by the equity
market, I don't know but as I said,
491
:you can do what you like, but it just
has consequences in that environment I
492
:don't want to be long the bond market
493
:Adam Butler: Yeah.
494
:How does a Trump presidency
change things, if at all?
495
:Julian Brigden: So it's something that,
I've been reaching out and starting
496
:to examine with policy friends.
497
:I mean, I'm very worried in this world.
498
:Not, doesn't impact markets immediately,
but it will impact us on an ongoing basis.
499
:I'm very worried about it, what
it does to the geopolitical side.
500
:Look, I think he, to your
point, he rolls over his tax
501
:cuts, he won't increase taxes.
502
:So you don't address the fiscal problems.
503
:I mean, they could even get worse.
504
:I do think there is a risk that
he entrenches US isolationism.
505
:Which is exactly what we saw in the
:
506
:acceleration in global conflict that
we got that we're going back to a world
507
:that looks more like the 1970s, right?
508
:When I grew up as a kid.
509
:You know, there were
wars all over the shop.
510
:There was conflict and coups and
every other week in Latin America,
511
:there was proxy wars being fought
in, Latin America between Cuba, there
512
:was a proxy for Russia and, funding,
various rebel groups in Latin America
513
:and the U S on the other side, right?
514
:You had the same going on in Africa.
515
:And I look at this thing
and it looks like that.
516
:And one of the reasons it ends up
looking like that is because no one's
517
:afraid of the bloody global policeman
anymore because he has proved to be
518
:either incompetent or unwilling to
take the steps to actually enforce law.
519
:And, partly that's because we live in a
much more, connected world and it's no
520
:longer possible to do what the English
did and roll up the battleship into
521
:the port and blast, the capitals a bit,
or to shoot rioters, in the streets.
522
:You know, that, that's a problem.
523
:When it comes to imposing that, and we've
just seen, the difficulties of the British
524
:and the Americans have found taking
on these who to who to rebels, right?
525
:Your modern weaponry at two million
bucks a missile against some bloody
526
:drone and a bunch of camels, right?
527
:And guys with AK 47s.
528
:These are some of the longer
term inflation trends, which
529
:really, really do worry me.
530
:And it's one of the, one of the
reasons, not the main reason, but one
531
:of the reasons why, I am a structural
bond bearer and I just don't.
532
:I think it's very, very difficult to
address these problems in the West.
533
:Adam Butler: Have we seen the trough
in rates for this year, do you think?
534
:Julian Brigden: I, I think at least for
the next three to six months, I think,
535
:yes, we're short, we got shorted around 3.
536
:92 in 10 year treasuries, a
kind of target probably 4.
537
:25 first off, and then 4.
538
:40, 4.
539
:50.
540
:And it's, it's part of this sort of reset.
541
:And this tightening, this offsetting,
moving, tightening financial
542
:conditions that if the equity
market will not give up the ghost,
543
:And as I said, I don't think Janet Yellen
has any, she understands this type of
544
:financialization, this relationship
between stocks and employment, right?
545
:She's not willing to let this thing go.
546
:And she's got some pretty big
tools that she can deploy, right?
547
:She's done a great job
at basically pushing.
548
:Refunding into the front end
of the curve and then draining
549
:liquidity from the reverse repo.
550
:Adam Butler: What an unbelievable
hit to taxpayers this is to
551
:continue to front load funding.
552
:Like, honestly,
553
:Julian Brigden: Yeah, but come on,
we've got to win the election, right?
554
:We've got to fight, the fear of
the orange man is much greater than
555
:the fiscal, survivability of the U.
556
:S.
557
:long term.
558
:This is all just fiddling while
Rome burns type shit, right?
559
:That's where it becomes scary when
you look at this and go, really?
560
:Is that what our
politicians have really got?
561
:Come down to, and I think the answer
is, I hate to say it, I think yes.
562
:Adam Butler: so why isn't gold
running in this environment?
563
:Julian Brigden: But I think part
of the problem I think gold has
564
:performed quite well, right?
565
:If you look at it against the
S& P, it's actually held its own
566
:for quite, quite a long time.
567
:But I think, the big disappointment
is when you look further down the kind
568
:of Periodic cable, and sort of peer
periodic cable, and you look at things
569
:like silver which doesn't look good
and it really shouldn't, you break much
570
:lower than this, and it could start to
get look quite ugly, and I think the big
571
:problem there is that we built in, you
know, lots of rate cuts into the dollar.
572
:Right.
573
:And the dollar is now starting to
look a little better as we price
574
:out some of these rate cuts, right?
575
:Such an aggressive stance on rates.
576
:And I do think, when you look at the
data, even though I don't think the
577
:ECB will cut anywhere close to what's
also priced into their curve, I do
578
:think there's much more justification
for, and in the UK, for some rate cut.
579
:Versus arguably, I don't think any rate
cut in the US, as I said, depending
580
:on exactly how the Fed plays it, we
will see, and that will determine
581
:exactly how strong this dollar gets.
582
:But it looks, I think
that's the immediate.
583
:The immediate thing that's weighing
that and the higher rates is
584
:weighing on gold at the moment.
585
:Adam Butler: And internationally, so
you're just talking about Europe and the
586
:UK how is the European economy looking?
587
:How's the UK economy looking?
588
:Is it gaining strength in the same way as
589
:Julian Brigden: No, I mean, I think
the UK looks quite vulnerable.
590
:It's really, you know, Brexit
was an enormous own goal.
591
:It's been, it's a structural headwind
for the UK and it's something.
592
:That we talked about for the next
decade, basically the consumer is
593
:very vulnerable given the mortgage
structure and the lack of fixed rate
594
:mortgages is going to become increasingly
vulnerable to these high rates.
595
:She's got a structural
problem to some degree.
596
:Because we lost a lot of skilled
craftsmen post Brexit, you know, they
597
:went back to Eastern Europe and they were
keeping a lid on some of these costs.
598
:Some of it's being offset by short
term visa issues, but, we have, there
599
:just aren't enough workers there.
600
:The same problem is the US,
the same problem is Australia.
601
:A very large Australian bank They're
treasury team the other day and talking
602
:about, how do we grow again with 3.
603
:7%, unemployment in the U S and they said,
it's exactly the same in Australia, right?
604
:They just, there aren't
enough workers, right?
605
:And so this idea that everything
just picks up again, unless you get
606
:that productivity burst is going to
be, it's going to be problematic.
607
:So I think for the UK that gives
us sort of a stagflationary
608
:esque kind of overtone.
609
:Continental Europe is a little
more interesting actually.
610
:I think When I look at my models,
they've done a much better
611
:job at dropping inflation.
612
:And I think the primary reason for that,
and it's something that we talked about
613
:or hinted, touched on a few minutes
ago, and that was continental Europe
614
:is a much more competitive economy So
the ability of corporates in Europe to
615
:price gouge to the same degree that US
corporates have done is just not there.
616
:There are many practices which in the
United States are deemed legal, which are
617
:really price collusion that in Europe
would end you up in jail, I don't know
618
:when last time you did your kitchen up.
619
:But I'm sure when you did, your wife
said, right, there's three appliance
620
:makers we're going to buy, darling.
621
:You know, one of them is going to be Wolf.
622
:One of them is going to, and SubZero,
the other one is going to be Miele.
623
:And you go to the dealer and you
go, well, I want the dishwasher and
624
:the oven and the cooktop and the
extraction fan and the blah, blah, blah.
625
:And the guy goes, yeah, 20,
000 bucks, probably 30 now.
626
:And you say, yeah, but I'm buying all
of them from the same manufacturer.
627
:So what's the deal and which
one's going to be better?
628
:Can I get a better deal in the
wolf or the sub zero or whatever?
629
:And he goes, no, they're
50 bucks difference.
630
:And I can't negotiate because if
I do, I'd lose my license, right?
631
:I mean that price collusion.
632
:I mean, that's price fixing, right?
633
:In Europe, you go to jail for that
shit, and you can go and buy your
634
:melee online, basically, and haggle
between about five different providers.
635
:So, it's, when I look at inflation
in Europe, it really looks to
636
:me like they've vanquished it.
637
:Now, don't get me wrong,
they've also got some labour
638
:problems, wages have been sticky.
639
:And high by European standards,
four and a half percent, so not as
640
:high as the US, but pretty high.
641
:But it does look to me that those
have started to show signs of peaking.
642
:When you look at growth levels relative
to inflation, I'm sorry, relative to rate,
643
:relative to rates, growth levels relative
to rates, you could argue the case that
644
:if you rank Those three economies that
the ECB has the tightest policy to the
645
:tune of about, by our calculations,
about a hundred basis points.
646
:So they could ease to,
a hundred basis points.
647
:The Bank of England is easy by
about a hundred basis points and
648
:the Fed is easy by 200 basis points.
649
:So the economy that is growing
the most has the easiest policy.
650
:So I think they can tweak a little bit.
651
:The encouraging signs that I see.
652
:in Europe.
653
:And I think this could become
a surprise, not immediately.
654
:And there are still steps
that I need to be completed.
655
:Europe is a very heavily focused,
particularly the Germany, which tends
656
:to drive a lot of our sentiment around
Europe to obviously the manufacturing
657
:cycle and the manufacturing cycle
is itself very sensitive to the
658
:inventory cycle and the CapEx cycle.
659
:And there is absolutely no doubt
whatsoever that as we've seen in the U.
660
:S.
661
:with, the weakness that we've seen in U.
662
:S.
663
:manufacturing that could be
coming to an end that they got
664
:themselves caught up with this
bloody great big inventory overhang.
665
:And so we've written, 18 months ago,
we'd said, this manufacturing sector is
666
:going to go from inventory shortage to
from famine to feast to hangover, right?
667
:So we're dealing with the hangover now.
668
:Right.
669
:In the U.
670
:S.
671
:I think that hangover looks
like it's partly addressed.
672
:Europe, it's, Germany, it's
certainly got more to do.
673
:But when we look at one of our favorite
kind of canaries in the coal mine,
674
:Sweden, it looks like she has totally
got on top of our inventory overhang.
675
:And now her inventories are
running under her orders.
676
:And so that suggests to me that as we
move into Beginning of Q2, even in Europe,
677
:you could start to see the manufacturing
cycle start to pick up again.
678
:And
679
:Adam Butler: dependent is
that on Chinese growth?
680
:Europe has migrated most of Yeah.
681
:Julian Brigden: But remember
and yes, that will be important.
682
:And I think China does look is a wild
card and does look kind of messy.
683
:But you're actually what China, I
think is going to try and do and
684
:you can see already, she's going
to try and export her way out.
685
:of, part of the problems
that she's facing.
686
:And certainly when you look at the
Chinese equity market, I've tweeted
687
:this, it's like a bloody train wreck.
688
:There's a, you know, we just
broke a trend, a multi month, a
689
:multi year trend line on a monthly
basis that goes back to like:
690
:In the Shanghai Composite, and
it looks like that thing could
691
:drop another 30%, 25, 30%.
692
:So, yeah, it's a risk, but it's, as
I said, I think growth certainly from
693
:just from an inventory restocking
perspective could push us cyclically
694
:in some of these manufacturing PMIs
back into expansion territory in Q2.
695
:And that I think is going to
come as a bit of a problem for
696
:some of these central banks.
697
:Adam Butler: Are you surprised at how
resilient countries like Australia,
698
:Canada, and the UK have been in the face
of these high rates, given the high level
699
:of mortgage debt on household balance
sheets and the fact that those mortgages
700
:reset on average every two or three years?
701
:Julian Brigden: Yes, I am.
702
:I am.
703
:And I think it's, and as I said, I think
in the UK it's going to start to bite.
704
:And I think, in some of these other
countries it's going to start to bite.
705
:The US is in that sense a
little bit of a special case.
706
:But even when you look at some of these
markets, I think we have to remember
707
:there's a lot of accumulated wealth,
even in, they're less equity focused
708
:than some of these other markets, but
people have got a lot of money, right?
709
:There's a lot of money that you can
use to cushion some of this blow.
710
:And
711
:Adam Butler: I think so much of
it is in houses though, right?
712
:There's a lot
713
:of
714
:Julian Brigden: a lot of, yes,
for the vast majority of people,
715
:right, it's in housing, right?
716
:That's your biggest asset.
717
:But there's shortages of houses, right?
718
:They're everywhere.
719
:Everywhere there's shortages of houses.
720
:You can see every single government
looking at, and they just did it in I
721
:think it was in Canada, where they just
imposed this thing on on all the the
722
:guys doing short term rentals, right?
723
:They were like, Oh, we're
going to tax you higher.
724
:Every single country is trying to
loosen up its housing market because
725
:they just aren't enough homes.
726
:So I think that the resilience of the
house price thing, and it goes back
727
:to your homebuilders comments, right?
728
:No one's moving in the U.
729
:S.
730
:Existing home sales have dried up.
731
:So by default, the homebuilders have to
do well in a very, very unusual move.
732
:I mean, one that, to be
honest, we got wrong.
733
:Didn't cost as much because you
run, that's what stops are for.
734
:And they did move in our
favor, at least initially.
735
:But there's a lot of
things that are resilient.
736
:And if you look at some of the economic
papers that people are writing, some
737
:of these effects start to kind of wane.
738
:It's quite possible a lot of two
thirds of the rate increases that
739
:we've seen have essentially already
worked their way through the economy.
740
:And I think the other thing that
people need to bear in mind, and
741
:this is, it's going to sound un
PC, but I don't mean it like this.
742
:The vast majority of
consumers don't count.
743
:Adam Butler: right.
744
:Julian Brigden: The vast majority
of consumers spend every red cent
745
:that they have from their income.
746
:And it doesn't matter whether
they spend it on all on food or
747
:on all on medical costs, right?
748
:It does if you're trying to pick
which ones are the winning sectors
749
:within the equity market, right?
750
:Is it the food companies or is
it the insurance companies, the
751
:health insurance companies, right?
752
:But it doesn't matter
from a GDP perspective.
753
:Adam Butler: Yeah.
754
:No, it's more from a marginal
spending by the middle class who
755
:in Australia, UK and Canada have,
been bolstered so substantially
756
:by paper housing wealth, right?
757
:And, if your house appreciates
at a multiple of the rate of your
758
:labor income savings every year,
then, you just, you feel like you
759
:have a lot more money to spend.
760
:If you believe that that trend is
going to continue and any sign of that
761
:cracking, it also, this has to come
out from a mathematical standpoint.
762
:Sure, people need to buy homes and
form families and there's a shortage of
763
:homes and so home prices stay higher.
764
:That means that a much larger portion
of people's income is going to mortgage
765
:payments that's not going to other
purchases of goods and services, right?
766
:So
767
:Julian Brigden: So that, yeah, so
768
:Adam Butler: valve has
to come from somewhere.
769
:Julian Brigden: yes, so that, that
has an impact as I said on, when you
770
:look at consumer discretionary stocks,
right, you would expect they're not
771
:going to buy, oh Christ, what's that
bloody brand they all buy up near
772
:me, I live in Boston, Aloe, right?
773
:They all walk around with Aloe, it's one
of these millennial brands and they all,
774
:and you go in there and you're like,
150 bucks for a pair of, sweatpants.
775
:Are you bloody insane?
776
:But these kids all seem to wear it and
yes, as they get squeezed out because they
777
:have to pay their student loans back or
their rent goes, up or they're trying to
778
:buy a house and all that sort of thing.
779
:But from abroad, cause they've got no,
they don't have that many stocks, but
780
:from a broad consumption expenditure
from a GDP perspective, it doesn't
781
:make any difference, what really makes
the difference is how the wealthy
782
:spend, and the wealthy are locked in.
783
:They've locked in their mortgage and their
stock portfolio keeps going up, right?
784
:The amount of wealth,
785
:Adam Butler: Canada and Australia, right?
786
:I mean, they're
787
:Julian Brigden: less so, less so.
788
:Adam Butler: you know, the wealthy have
already paid off, such a substantial
789
:portion of their mortgage, right?
790
:Julian Brigden: Right.
791
:And the same here in the US, right?
792
:I mean, a third of homes
being bought with cash,
793
:Adam Butler: Well, the U S is a
totally different case because.
794
:Only abandoningly small fraction
of the mortgages reset, right?
795
:Cause everything's at
20, 30 year fixed terms.
796
:So
797
:Julian Brigden: Yeah, correct.
798
:So look, I think it all comes down to
this, whether we see, it all comes down
799
:to me, to this labor market, right?
800
:That's what will dictate Goldilocks.
801
:And I, and it's also why
I think Goldilocks is so
802
:insanely difficult to achieve,
803
:Adam Butler: yeah, I'm just wondering,
I'm more talking about Canada, UK.
804
:And because
805
:Julian Brigden: And as I
806
:Adam Butler: I wonder if they're
with their good currency shorts,
807
:I wonder if, like, I think
808
:Julian Brigden: I do.
809
:Yeah, I
810
:Adam Butler: they, might be forced to cut.
811
:Julian Brigden: they are.
812
:I do think they will be forced to cut.
813
:Will they cut?
814
:And as I said, look, if you rank them,
and I, you know, Australia, I haven't
815
:done this but if I rank the big three
currency pairs yen doesn't really come
816
:into play because the BOJ's on a, still
on its different planet kind of thing.
817
:But if I would look at, Relative
growth relative to rates, right?
818
:And say, who's running the tightest,
where, and given that growth
819
:is picking up, who's, where the
biggest surprise is going to be.
820
:The biggest surprise would be in the US,
where rates should not get cut, and if
821
:anything, do need to go up arguably more.
822
:So that's dollar supportive.
823
:Then the next one is sterling.
824
:And then the worst one should be Europe.
825
:And I think there's a case to be
saying that you could end up with
826
:quite a weak.Euro I don't think it's
as weak as, necessarily some people
827
:think because I do think growth is,
will pick up a little bit, but the
828
:ECB can easily justify cutting rates.
829
:And then you put a Canada and Australia
in there, they're in somewhat similar
830
:circumstances, I think, to the UK.
831
:Adam Butler: Yeah.
832
:Okay.
833
:Equities leave the best to last.
834
:What are you seeing on
the equity front here?
835
:Julian Brigden: I mean, look, if
you, Broadly look at the S& P.
836
:It's gone nowhere for two years, right?
837
:Last year it was down
until the fourth quarter.
838
:Then Janet Yellen rather deftly slewed
all the issuance to the front end of
839
:the curve, drew liquidity back into the
system as a result out of the reverse
840
:repo into The liquidity metrics, which
set the level of the equity market.
841
:And we got this everything rally, right?
842
:We've got an everything rally.
843
:And I think this is an important
thing that people need to bear in
844
:mind if we are in a structurally
inflationary, higher inflationary
845
:environment, which I believe is the case.
846
:You are back into an environment
at basically existed prior to:
847
:1998 was a year in which Alan Greenspan
for the first time shifted from focusing
848
:on inflation to focusing on deflation.
849
:Cause even in 1998, he was beginning
to talk about the risk of the zero
850
:bounce at this point in which, the
central banks would lose out of ammo.
851
:And so they became much more
focused on preventing deflation.
852
:And that did something really.
853
:very dramatic and unprecedented.
854
:It slewed the correlation
between bond and equity prices.
855
:So prior to 1998, and there's a
Bank of England study that goes
856
:back and looks at 250 years of bond
pricing, bond and equity pricing.
857
:So prior to that period, you'd never
ever, ever seen negative correlation
858
:between bond and equity prices.
859
:So both assets either went up or down.
860
:together.
861
:So bonds rallied, yields fell
and stocks rallied or vice versa.
862
:And from 1998 onwards,
that relationship changes.
863
:You move to focus on deflation.
864
:I think we're moving back into that
positive correlation environment.
865
:It's certainly been the case since 2020.
866
:We're about where we've gone back
into negative correlation, but Q4
867
:was all about a positive correlation.
868
:Rally, right?
869
:And everything rally now that
got people quite excited by this
870
:idea of the reflationary cycle.
871
:So we had people thinking
about, do I buy the Russell?
872
:Do I buy the blah, blah, blah?
873
:Do I buy the blah, blah, blah?
874
:Do I buy cheap things?
875
:Are we going to rotate into stuff?
876
:But the reality of the situation
is I struggle with that thesis.
877
:I think it could pick
up a little bit in Q2
878
:is if we start to see these PMIs
come back, but if, but then, from.
879
:you look at the growth value metric which
is we've gone back to right to growth
880
:picked up in Q4 and into the beginning of
of this year for the first week at least.
881
:Uh, sorry value did, value outperformed
and then growth kind of underperformed.
882
:Now growth is coming back and providing
all of that you know the big mega caps
883
:are providing all of that, that thing.
884
:Now we were talking before this
about some of those names like
885
:Tesla, I think is a classic bubble.
886
:I, just tweeted out and I
know, well, I will tweet out.
887
:I know I'm going to get shit From
the apostles of Tesla, which is
888
:I think the fundamental problem.
889
:There are investors, they are believers.
890
:But to me, Tesla is a narrative that's
been fit to a price action and a
891
:price action that was created by QE.
892
:And you can see the domes when
Tesla started to perform, and it was
893
:exactly when the Fed did in 2019,
not QE if we remember that, and then
894
:we had the COVID QE, and it peaked
exactly at peak Fed liquidity.
895
:And since then it has not managed
to recoup its thing and people are
896
:like, Oh, but you know, it'll come
back, it'll come back and he'll
897
:build a bloody robot and he'll decide
the truck and all this bullshit.
898
:And the reality of the situation is this
is just a hyper bubble, but there are
899
:some obviously good companies still left.
900
:You're paying an awful lot for them.
901
:And the reality of the situation
is, is when I look at the U S equity
902
:market, I think this is a massively,
massively, massively overvalued market
903
:versus the rest of the world, right?
904
:Like four standard deviations
overvalued versus the rest of the world.
905
:But those dynamics are unlikely to
change until either the dollar declines
906
:And that hurts foreign investors
who've got their money in the U.
907
:S.
908
:And or the bubble bursts because it
just runs out of puff, let's say.
909
:Doesn't look like that's the case.
910
:Or we go into recession and that
doesn't look like the case either.
911
:And so for me, you've got this sort
of ongoing, self reinforcing, truly
912
:reflective type cycle going on in the
US equity market where the purchase
913
:of the asset, In this case, stocks
underpins wealth, underpins employment,
914
:underpins Fed rate hike, underpins the
dollar, underpins the valuation of U.
915
:S.
916
:stocks for foreigners.
917
:It's a very self reinforcing,
literally reflective in the true
918
:Soros esque sense of the world.
919
:Adam Butler: Mm hmm.
920
:Julian Brigden: And I struggle to
see that ending and I particularly
921
:struggle to see the ending because
I said, I think Janet Yellen since
922
:the, really since Q3 of last year.
923
:has understood that she can't,
she's only got any one job, right?
924
:And it's radically different
from the job that she used to do.
925
:Her job these days is to
just get our boss reelected.
926
:And if as I think she understands
this stocks determine what goes on
927
:in terms of employment, then you
have to keep this equity market.
928
:Boyd up and she has between her
ability to slew issuance and control
929
:the reverse repo and this other
big pot of cash that she hasn't
930
:tapped the treasury general account.
931
:If she sees stocks wobble at all, she
could just pump liquidity into the system.
932
:And that's just another reason.
933
:So I struggle with seeing
a big bearish bearish move.
934
:I mean, could you get a 10%?
935
:Sure.
936
:You can get one of those
any day of the week.
937
:But a big bear market between
now and the election, it doesn't
938
:look, it doesn't feel that way.
939
:It doesn't feel that way.
940
:Adam Butler: Um,
941
:Julian Brigden: That's why another
reason to be bearish bonds, right?
942
:Cause if stocks aren't going to do any
of the heavy lifting to try and tighten
943
:financial conditions has to be bonds.
944
:Maybe the dollar plays a bit of
a role going forward, in the next
945
:couple of months, that would help
a bit, but it's going to have to be
946
:it's going to have to be bonds a lot.
947
:Adam Butler: So is there a sleeper trade
besides being, net short fixed income?
948
:Are you interested in, are you
looking at Japan here, Japanese
949
:Julian Brigden: look, I
like, I do love Japan.
950
:I do love Japan.
951
:But there's a couple of
concerns I have about Japan.
952
:So the first one is, is the
politics is a bloody mess, right?
953
:And so I think, a real
mess, a real, real mess.
954
:We write about this a lot with clients.
955
:We're one of the few shops, I think,
that have anyone who really has
956
:experience in Japan and follows Japan.
957
:And Jeff is being very good on this one.
958
:And the politics are real mess.
959
:It could end up over the next couple
of years, really destroying the LDPs.
960
:Iron grip over Japanese politics.
961
:So that could get really
quite interesting.
962
:But the impact of that for markets
is it probably delays the the BOJ's
963
:normalance normalization of, or
the end of negative interest rates.
964
:We don't think they can really
probably move until July.
965
:So some of the euphoria that you see
around some of the banks, which have been
966
:great trades, brilliant, brilliant trades.
967
:And really one of the driving forces
behind the Nikkei, that kind of, may
968
:retest that, but I would buy on any day.
969
:The other thing that I'm a little
concerned about in Japan is if you
970
:go back and you look at history and
you go and look at back like:
971
:and the dot com bubble, you get
this interesting factor before the
972
:whole global equity market goes.
973
:And that is, it seems that
equity investors go, Oh yeah,
974
:the US is a bit expensive.
975
:Bloody hell, have you
seen how cheap Japan is?
976
:I'll have me some of this.
977
:And you get this major final like, woohoo!
978
:Japan is the final like, hurrah!
979
:Where you pile into this thing.
980
:Now, that said, I have a line, I have
a little chart that I'm watching.
981
:We're not there yet.
982
:I'm looking at the Japanese
banks in dollar terms.
983
:I think it's the best piece
of chart porn that I've got.
984
:And you can draw a multi-year
line that comes in at $2 for
985
:the Japanese banking index.
986
:And if we can crack above that
and we haven't, then I think it
987
:can double or triple from there.
988
:But until it does, I'm not playing.
989
:Adam Butler: you be would you be a buyer
of Japanese equities hedged or unhedged?
990
:Julian Brigden: I would be inclined
to do them unhedged when I buy
991
:it, I want to buy it unhedged.
992
:And that's another reason why, look,
we're still in this game where, you
993
:know, Oh, you buy Japanese equities
because the yen is weaker and they
994
:really just a yen play at the moment.
995
:And that is in itself is
just a treasury trade.
996
:And, it's all, when you start running
the correlations across the book, you
997
:find out that by being short treasuries,
you've got a lot of the same trades on.
998
:And as I said, I think Japan
is an interesting story.
999
:is it there yet to have autonomous growth?
:
00:54:27,813 --> 00:54:28,523
Eh, I don't know.
:
00:54:28,793 --> 00:54:31,253
And as I said, the problem
is, is that as long as the U.
:
00:54:31,253 --> 00:54:31,413
S.
:
00:54:31,413 --> 00:54:34,663
is growing so rapidly and
that means running a very
:
00:54:34,663 --> 00:54:35,983
large current account deficit.
:
00:54:36,339 --> 00:54:38,798
We need all the world's cash to fund it.
:
00:54:38,828 --> 00:54:43,335
And so until those dynamics change,
it's kind of tough to buy other things.
:
00:54:43,335 --> 00:54:47,615
I'd love to, I'd love to, but you
need either the dollar to break down.
:
00:54:47,965 --> 00:54:49,155
And that's makes, Mr.
:
00:54:49,155 --> 00:54:49,515
And Mrs.
:
00:54:49,515 --> 00:54:50,725
Watanabe go.What?
:
00:54:51,555 --> 00:54:54,025
Why am I not making money on my U.
:
00:54:54,025 --> 00:54:54,155
S.
:
00:54:54,155 --> 00:54:54,525
stocks?
:
00:54:54,545 --> 00:54:55,915
Oh, because the yen is going up.
:
00:54:56,265 --> 00:54:56,855
Okay.
:
00:54:57,145 --> 00:54:58,915
Or you need to go into recession in the U.
:
00:54:58,915 --> 00:54:59,265
S.
:
00:54:59,535 --> 00:55:01,765
That current account deficit
shrink and the money go home.
:
00:55:02,225 --> 00:55:03,925
Or we just need to burst the bubble in U.
:
00:55:03,925 --> 00:55:04,055
S.
:
00:55:04,055 --> 00:55:04,955
stocks in one day.
:
00:55:05,285 --> 00:55:09,005
You know, we just find out NVIDIA
can't grow at 25 percent per annum
:
00:55:09,005 --> 00:55:12,008
or 100 percent per annum, or whatever
the hell, the equity analysts have
:
00:55:12,088 --> 00:55:13,518
penciled in for this week, right?
:
00:55:13,798 --> 00:55:14,378
Adam Butler: Yeah.
:
00:55:14,551 --> 00:55:18,341
Is there any trade, no matter
how niche that we didn't touch
:
00:55:18,341 --> 00:55:19,841
on that is worth mentioning?
:
00:55:20,471 --> 00:55:23,201
Julian Brigden: you know, we don't really
get involved in very niche y stuff.
:
00:55:23,201 --> 00:55:25,311
We're pretty plain vanilla macro.
:
00:55:25,761 --> 00:55:29,441
And we, we're looking at some stuff,
the oil markets this morning we
:
00:55:29,441 --> 00:55:32,491
were discussing, you know, crude
kind of looks quite interesting.
:
00:55:32,931 --> 00:55:36,481
Potentially for a move to the top side,
which would get a little interesting,
:
00:55:36,841 --> 00:55:42,161
but not, there's nothing much really
compelling outside, all our CTO
:
00:55:42,211 --> 00:55:46,031
models, are long now, pretty much
every stock market with the exception
:
00:55:46,031 --> 00:55:52,175
of FTSE and we're short, most bond
markets and the dollar looks quite
:
00:55:52,205 --> 00:55:54,125
interesting for further strength.
:
00:55:54,175 --> 00:55:56,855
One of the ones that's had
a big run, is dollar max.
:
00:55:57,125 --> 00:56:01,005
We've come down to multi, multi year
trend lines on the dollar against
:
00:56:01,005 --> 00:56:04,125
Mexican peso and down here, if
anything, you're probably supposed
:
00:56:04,125 --> 00:56:05,145
to be a bit, a little bit long,
:
00:56:05,305 --> 00:56:08,605
but It's not like, you know, it was
easy in 21, you just shorted bonds
:
00:56:08,635 --> 00:56:10,335
because inflation was going way up.
:
00:56:10,575 --> 00:56:12,395
Last year was a toppy macro year.
:
00:56:12,595 --> 00:56:16,365
I think this will show us its hand
but it doesn't look like this is
:
00:56:16,365 --> 00:56:19,268
a market where you're supposed
to be betting big yet on macro.
:
00:56:19,485 --> 00:56:21,621
Outside, probably fixed income.
:
00:56:22,186 --> 00:56:22,596
Adam Butler: Right.
:
00:56:22,947 --> 00:56:23,557
Awesome.
:
00:56:23,607 --> 00:56:25,997
Julian, before we go,
where can people find you?
:
00:56:26,527 --> 00:56:29,117
Julian Brigden: So, you can find
us if you're interested in the
:
00:56:29,117 --> 00:56:33,357
institutional product, reach
out to support at MI2partners.
:
00:56:33,397 --> 00:56:33,667
com.
:
00:56:34,427 --> 00:56:38,107
And if you want to and it also, if
you want to follow what Raoul and I
:
00:56:38,207 --> 00:56:41,497
both do on Real Vision, because we
obviously produce a joint product there,
:
00:56:41,797 --> 00:56:44,067
you can use the same email address.
:
00:56:44,394 --> 00:56:47,914
And if you just want to follow
me on Twitter at JulianMI2.
:
00:56:47,914 --> 00:56:49,364
Thanks
:
00:56:50,284 --> 00:56:50,824
Adam Butler: All right.
:
00:56:50,824 --> 00:56:53,084
Well, thank you so much again.
:
00:56:53,294 --> 00:56:56,304
Always a powerhouse of a guest
and an awesome conversation.
:
00:56:56,434 --> 00:56:57,724
So, until next time.
:
00:56:58,784 --> 00:56:59,334
Julian Brigden: Thanks very much indeed.